Yesterday I went to a secondhand store and bought two dresses from a vintage store. One of them was this little number:
I love this dress. I also love the idea that maybe it is from an earlier decade and it's really old (probably not because it wasn't that expensive). But I loved so much I wore it to church today.And then I had an interesting experience.
On the walk to the Metro this morning, I noticed a lot of men looking at me. Then I started paying attention and realized a high percentage of the men who passed stared at me as I walked to church. These men were distracted by my dress (I am not so foolish to think it is me). My outfit made them stop whatever they were doing to stop and stare.
This sparked an interesting conversation with the other girls around me: Is this dress immodest? It technically follows all of the rules: shoulders covered, to the knees, etc. But this dress distracted many of the men around me. Is this dress going against the spirit of the law of modesty?
The point of this post is not to get people to say whether they think this particular dress is modest or not, but more to get people's perspective on modesty. In our conversation, important questions about modesty came up.
(1) What is the point of modesty?
Often in Young Womens, the emphasis is placed on not distracting guys; covering ourselves to make it easier for men to think good clean thoughts.
If that is the point, is making yourself "distractingly" attractive being immodest? The obvious problem with this point is that we have been told to make ourselves presentable and even attractive. But is there a line between being attractive and going too far (even if following all of the technical rules)?
Is there a distinction between guys thoughts when a women is modestly really attractive and when she is immodest? Or does it lead to the same result; if it is different, is it better?
A different point of modesty is that we need to honor our bodies as a gift from God; our body is a temple. If this is the only point of modesty, that kind of takes care of all of the other questions. But, what if someone's version of honoring their body is being immodest? Clearly, we think there are rules to honoring our bodies; you can't just do anything you think is honoring (multiple piercings, unnatural hair color, etc.).
Perhaps modesty is just preparing us for temple garments. I'm sure this is part of it, but I don't think it is all of it.
Another point of modesty is learning to follow the Prophets' council. Perhaps this is reason enough to do anything in life: trusting the mouthpiece of the Lord. But I think when we come up with reasons why we follow the council, often our resolve to do becomes stronger and we follow it better. Also, I am trying to figure out what the council is right now.
(2) What is the role of intent in modesty?
Someone suggested that intent is what really matters. If you are dressing to get all of the guys attention, that is immodest. But it is modest if you are just dressing to make yourself presentable.
But there is an argument that intentionally or not, immodesty leads to the same consequences. For example, if a girl does not realize her skirt is too high, it still is too high and this leads to the same amount of distraction as if she had known.
(3) Are we responsible for others' reaction to us?
Another point brought up is if we are following all of the rules and doing everything in our power to be modest, is it our fault if we distract others? Should I even be having these questions; am I worrying about something that I cannot control?
One guy suggested if a girl is being modest and a guy still thinks unclean thoughts about her, it is on him not her. But if a girl wears an outfit she knows will do this to men, is it on her? Or is she just being attractive?
(4) Often, the phrase modesty in word and action is used. What does modesty in action mean?
It naturally roles of the tongue, but I never really thought about what phrase means. Perhaps it means what we said earlier but in terms of actions: acting in a way that does not distract men; honoring your body with actions. But what do those mean? I do not know.
Maybe modesty in action is something like trying to describe salt. You know it when you taste it, but you cannot explain it to someone else. Perhaps you just you when you are acting immodestly. But what if you don't?
(5) Is conservatism part of modesty?
In For Strength of Youth, I think it discourages wearing immodest earrings. What are immodest earrings? I am not sure, but I think it has to do with size, color, style, etc.
Are we allowed to wear clothing that is "out there"? Does modesty have a certain style to it, and if it does, are certain styles in it of themselves immodest? Like clothing that is loud or a little bit crazy. I do not think the church wants us to dress like nuns or even sister missionaries all the time. But should we be closer to that end than we are?
Obviously, I have not really come to any conclusions on these questions. All of these points and ideas are still roaming around in my head. Another important point is that what God cares about is that we are trying our hardest to obey him. I know this and perhaps I am going beyond the mark. I am not meaning to. I am just trying to figure out the "spirit of the law" of modesty.
So often, the letter of the law of modesty is what is emphasized to women. The letter is important, even crucial. But I think knowing the spirit of laws is the higher law.
Please share your ideas and insights. I really am open to anything. Except you saying I am stupid... that I do not appreciate or welcome.
Hello. Comment in two parts.
ReplyDelete1) What is the point of modesty?
I believe that the point of modesty is to prepare us for the standards of behavior that we will be expected to maintain in the celestial kingdom. One of these standards is a standard for dress. Brigham Young said, "We are trying to be the image of those who live in heaven; we are trying to pattern after them, to look like them, to walk and talk like them." So modesty is a preparation for our lives in the celestial kingdom.
Everyone should make themselves attractive, but the question is, What types of people am I trying to attract? If I don't know or don't care, then I can dress however I want. But if I know what types of people I want to have around me, and I know what they find attractive, then I will take that information and use it to show off the qualities that I know will appeal to my target audience. The line between trying to be attractive and going to far depends on your knowledge of those who are around you. The limits will be different for each person, depending on their reactions to you and their relationships with you. For this reason, a person should not complain if he receives unwanted, sexually-oriented attention from the same people regularly and does nothing to change his habits or manners around the offenders.
"Is there a distinction between guys thoughts when a women is modestly really attractive and when she is immodest?" Yes. There are two kinds of attractive--the attractive that depends only on natural sexual desires, and the attractive that is the product of knowing someone and their values, and loving that person for those things. In the first case, it's an animal-like urge, but in the second case, sex becomes a culmination and a celebration of the values that make love and joy possible between two people. In this case, someone is attractive no matter what they are wearing, because the substance of the relationship is driving the attraction, not the surface. People (mostly men, I would say) run into problems when they confuse the two attractions, and try to create substance through sex--they are reversing the cause-and-effect relationship.
What is the role of intent in modesty?
Intent does matter, but it is not an excuse for immodesty. Sometimes girls don't know, but they ought to be aware. Both parties have a responsibility, not just the girl and not just the guy. But intent can't be judged in the same way for everything. Let's say I'm wearing a Legend of Zelda shirt today, because there is a girl that I like in one of my classes, and I know she likes video games. Is that immodest?
Are we responsible for others' reactions to us?
Ultimately, no, but everyone has to use common sense. If a girl wears a low shirt or a high skirt around guys she knows to be creeps, then she shouldn't complain when she gets harrassed. Every person retains the capacity to make independent decisions in every situation, but there are always going to be situations where we way, "You asked for it."
Often, the phrase modesty in word and action is used. What does modesty in action mean?
ReplyDeleteI think that it means that we realize what responsibilities we take upon ourselves when we take the sacrament every week. We are trying to be disciplies of Christ, and this is the thought that should guide our actions, whether we are dressing, speaking, thinking, or anything else. Our actions should be characterized by moderation and humility. This is hard to explain, but there is a devotional address called "Your Refined Heavenly Home" that was given in 2006 by Douglas Callister. He talks about these types of behaviors and deals with these questions. The address is here http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=11394&x=42&y=5.
5) Is conservatism part of modesty?
I believe that it is, but here, each person must decide what kind of attention they want and what face they want to present to the world. This reminds me of the talk we had in your basement last year, with Rachel and Sam. I think you were there. If girls dress immodestly but aren't "immodest" in behavior or speech, they shouldn't complain when people use their immodesty in dress as the criterion for judgment. These girls have not given any other criterion, and guys have to use the best information possible to decide what they want.
We focus on modesty for women because it is more obvious, but it is an issue for men, as well. I think men should focus on modesty in bevahior, rather than dress, because there isn't a lot to say about what a guy wears and doesn't wear. Although I believe that the awful V-neck t-shirts that guys wear, a "fashion" right now, are immodest and should be banned by some international governing body of clothing.
Hey, you've got a young woman here - the modesty master. I've had modesty beat into my head almost as much as the word of wisdom and even more than the wisdom of group dating. Funny enough, I still don't have any real answers, because I think everyone's answers to these questions are really personal. I've often found other people's solutions useless and even frustrating (though that's embarassing to admit).
ReplyDeleteI only have to add one comment, and I will put it in question format to match yours. (I've always been the copycat younger sister):
Why do we talk about modesty so much?
Something I'm stumbled on recently to struggle with is how I'm taught about things to the point of absurdity merely because they are measurable. You could literally measure modesty with a ruler, though that would be a little untraditional. It's easier to measure by checking the above knee, above chest, (do I even need to go on? The fact that anyone - even all of my crazy non-Mormon friends - could recite these rules proves my point). What I mean is that in a turbulent, confusing world away from our father in heaven and a church that is trying desperately to help us navigate our way through, we cling to the clear cut rules. We hold fast to the rules that we can check off on the worthiness checklist, instead of the much more valuable "uncheckable" ones like compassion, honesty, and faith. We yearn for order, for simplicity, so we like talking about rules we can write up on the blackboard. How much more often do young women learn about modesty than chastity? I can tell you the answer: a lot. Isn't chastity the deeper, more important "spirit of the law"? If someone doesn't have a testimony of the law of chastity or truly understand it for themselves how do people expect they will understand the law of modesty? I understand how awkward it is, I feel super awkward when I see a chastity headline at the top of the lesson manual page before we start. But still, the fact that 12-year-old girls enter young womens able to recite the "shorts to the knee" and "no tanktops" rules and yet have little to no knowledge about chastity is still upsetting. Like I said, my school friends are aware of these rules along with other measurable ones. But how much more important is it that they notice that in addition to wearing long shorts, Mormons also serve willingly and work hard and refrain from judging other people? I think it's more important personally. Modesty is great! Woohoo for modesty! I love it! but how many times do we need reminding of this rather minor and unimportant rule? I like to think that in the after life it wont matter what we wear. We could be wearing the hideous Belmont High chorus dresses or hazmat suits or even nothing at all in the heaven that I picture. Because it won't matter anymore - we will cease to care so much about the measurable, cease to judge people on what they wear, and cease to value sex appeal more than the "inside". That's the heaven I like to picture anyway.
It might make you wonder what I've been wearing since you left. Gasp. Maybe you think I've worn shorts to my mid-thigh or a tank top or two. I assure you it isn't true! I follow the rule, I simply question the importance of the one so consistently talked about in the young women's conference, so consistently the topic of conversation and consternation. I value your questions and seek answers myself.
I don't know how to end this: I'm awkward and a blog commenting neophite. Okay, bye.
-Matthew